Leck Fell FAQ

This FAQ covers the operation of the Leck Fell access agreement. It does not cover the reasons why there needs to be an access agreement or permit system. This has been covered elsewhere.

1. Why can`t I just turn up and get a permit?

The landowner wants a system of managed/controlled caving access to Leck Fell, and he places a limit on the amount of caving access he will allow at any given time. The limit is currently three permits per day (not the same cave & seven cavers per permit) and no caving during April May and June. As a result of this the landowner has entered into a legally binding agreement or licence with the CNCC. This sets out the terms of the access agreement, and licenses the CNCC to issue permits to bone fide caving clubs only. Bone fide here refers to clubs who are specifically members of BCA. Furthermore as part of the agreement/license, the landowner is indemnified, under the BCA insurance scheme.

The CNCC therefore, as part of its role in relation to this legal agreement, must ensure that permits only go to clubs who are members of BCA. Hence the need for there to be a written application to the permit secretary, on club headed notepaper. This is the current situation and it will continue to apply, unless/until a different or better way is found and agreed, in relation to verifying which clubs may or may not be issued with a permit. Unless CNCC fulfils this function here effectively, it could be held to be in breach of the agreement by the landowner.

Most clubs who regularly apply for permits initially e mail the permit secretary first to ask about availability. E mail enquiries are dealt with as a very high priority and it should be possible to sort out a booking within a few hours. The e mail address is jsjimi@blueyonder.co.uk This must be followed up by forwarding a stamped self addressed envelope (together with request on club headed notepaper) to Jim Sloane (CNCC Leck Fell Meets Secretary) 60 Sharoe Green Lane, Fulwood, Preston, Lancs. PR2 8EE.

It is worth noting that the landowner reserves the right to cancel any permits issued in favour of grouse shooting. While this is the case, over the past ten years no permits have ever been cancelled at all.

2. I want to start a surface dig on Leck Fell, can you get permission?

 Those interested must initially approach the CNCC Secretary/Access Officer. As the land is part of a Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI), English Nature must also be consulted as well and approval given for the proposed project, before it is started. The Leck Beck Head Catchment SSSI is administered by the Kendal office of Natural England. The phone no is 0300 060 2122. Their website http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ contains specific information about this SSSI. Leck Fell is designated as being scientifically/environmentally significant, not only from the point of view if its caves and geology, but also as a result of its plant and other wild life as well. Several species of rare moss and fern are found on the fell. Also bats live and hibernate within the caves themselves, and for the past couple of years have been the subject of scientific research.

English Nature does visit the fell to inspect this SSSI on a regular basis.

It is worth noting that permission has been forthcoming for the past four major surface digging projects on Leck Fell i.e. Notts Pot 2, Rough Pot, Shuttleworth Pot and The Cupcake.

Starting digs without obtaining the necessary approval could have an adverse impact upon not only normal sporting access to the fell, but may, in addition, also permanently damage the prospects for future exploratory work.

3. Why are clubs asked to apply for permits three months in advance?

As there is a limited amount of permits that may be issued, and as the main demand for permits is invariably at weekends and bank holidays, some notice is needed. Although mention is made of three months in the CNCC handbook, this figure now seems somewhat arbitrary and was felt to be necessary some years ago, when there were far more cavers about, and demand for permits was much higher than it is at present. Some of the larger local clubs and University caving clubs however do like to organise their meets well in advance. Consequently, it is recommended that clubs try to book ahead, as much as possible.

The landowner requires CNCC to forward a monthly list or return (indicating date, cave and club concerned) of all permits issued. This is forwarded to the manager of the estate office (in triplicate – with copies for the tenant and gamekeeper) on the last day of each month (excepting April May & June). Providing a request (and sae) reaches the permit secretary before the end of the month, and a date is free for the following month – then there is no reason why a permit cannot be issued, provided BCA subs are up to date. As such it is not always the case that three months notice is necessary.

It has been possible to negotiate more flexible arrangements with the landowner. He has for some time been prepared to accept an updated monthly list, once partway through the month, where clubs have wanted access at shorter notice. While this is possible, it does require extra work (and goodwill) not only by the meets secretary, but also the estate office staff as well. As a result the preferred way of making a request for a permit is still to approach the permit secretary before the end of the current month for a date the following month. In the event that this is not possible, then it would be helpful if clubs could provide the meets secretary with a reason why they could not adhere to the normal deadline, so this can be passed on to the estate office together with the updated monthly return.

Clubs are asked to consider the needs of all their members in relation to this access agreement. Although most club meets take place at weekends, there may be some members who for work or family reasons are unable to go caving on Saturdays and Sundays. Several clubs have specifically requested week day permits for groups of their members who cannot go caving at weekends. This has been helpful in making sure there is equality in relation to access and that no member feels excluded. Clubs are therefore positively encouraged to apply for weekday permits, on behalf of their members in the event there is any need at all.

4. Why can’t the CNCC negotiate more access with the landowner and more particularly do away with the `closed season’?

Both before and after the introduction of the CRoW legislation, the CNCC has negotiated consistently with the landowner and his agents that the access arrangements were not satisfactory. From 1st January 2010 it has been possible to agree more favourable caving access arrangements, which include an increase in access from two permits a day to three. It has not been possible however to alter the restrictions that exist in relation to the closed season (April May & June).

In relation to the closed season there has been an indication from the from English Nature that the three months `closed season’ is in some ways officially approved of from their perspective, as that this gives the fell and its rare species a period of time with a minimum of disturbance. The landowner is aware of this view and it is quoted when the subject is raised. As such it is felt that it is not just the landowner that is responsible for the current arrangements, but it appears that government agencies have also helped to perpetuate the situation, as well.

The current access arrangements will be reviewed at meetings that will be held with the land agents on an annual basis and efforts will continue to be made to try to improve caving access where possible.

5. Where can I park when I go caving on Leck Fell?

As far as the access agreement is concerned the only area that is approved of by the estate is the Lost Johns car park indicated on the current permit form at grid reference 532272E 6006063N. There is another parking area beyond (to the east) up Leck Fell Lane a couple of hundred yards or so, towards Leck Fell house. This parking area is on land by the side of the road that is on the property of Mr Alan Middleton, and is not part of the Leck Fell Estate. Mr Middleton currently does not object to members of the public parking on this area.

Since the opening up of Notts Pot 2, cavers have started parking on the grass verges, between the dry stone walls, just before the gate that leads on to the fell. This is something of a grey area and it is not clear if the verges belong to the Leck estate or to the highways authority. To date no complaints have been received about this practice. The verges in this area are however becoming something of a mess and it would be better if cavers could utilise the two previously mentioned car parks when visits are made. Careless and inconsiderate parking in his area has also, on occasions, meant that it has been difficult for farm vehicles to pass.

As far as the Lost Johns car park is concerned, three cars per permit are allowed, as part of the access agreement. The registration numbers of the cars involved should be entered on the permit form and displayed in the window of one of the vehicles. Once the trip is over the permit form must be posted through the Estate Office letterbox. On leaving the fell, the Estate Office is located immediately by the railway bridge, on the left hand side of the road, opposite the village hall, before rejoining the A65.

6. I`m going caving without a permit – so what?

It isn’t a foregone conclusion that there will be no repercussions about a caving visit to the fell without a permit. The landowner and his employees do visit the fell regularly and when they suspect that trips are being undertaken without a permit, the issue is brought up with the CNCC. It is not the case therefore that clandestine visits often go unnoticed, and when matters are raised with CNCC officers, this consumes a good deal of time and effort when problems have to be looked into, and sorted out. When complaints have been made (and there are roughly about two a year) the landowner has, thus far, been happy for the CNCC to deal with the matter in its own way. To date, in the main all that has ever been necessary has been a relatively low level response and confirmation to the estate that the issue has been addressed.

From time to time there have been complaints from cavers about the activities of other cavers, invariably when they have not been issued with permits.

As part of a series of incidents or a serious occurrence, such as vandalism, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that the landowner may insist upon more decisive action on the part of CNCC. This is something that absolutely nobody wants at all - ever. BothBCA & CNCC constitutions do however containdisrepute/disciplinary clauses, which were included specifically in the event that action was neededto protect access agreements. If there was ever no alternative other than to resort to the use of such measures, the power does exist therefore, for punitive sanctions to be exacted. Clubs may at the end of the day be compelled to take action, albeit under very exceptional circumstances, against individual members. It is sincerely hoped that this stage is never reached.

It is worth noting that in recent times there has been at least one club which deemed it necessary to take action in relation to members after an incident on Leck Fell. This took place at the end of the closure of the fell due to foot and mouth disease. The outcome was that at least one member of the club concerned lost membership. Although this was not as a result of any formal CNCC/BCA disciplinary proceedings, it nevertheless points to the type of thing that might happen, given that any particular infringement caused serious upset.

7. How many permits can our club have a year?

Most clubs who regularly hold meets on the fell rarely ask for more than four or five weekend permits a year. Sometimes clubs have needed more, specifically for exploration work. In these circumstances additional weekend permits have been issued, but only on the basis that the weekend dates concerned are the unbooked weekend dates, vacant immediately before the monthly return is forwarded to the estate (see 3 above). A request can always be made for such permits and they will be issued on a first come first served basis.

There is little demand for permits during the week, and as such there is plenty of availability.

8. Which caves are covered by the access agreement?

The caves that are included on the access agreement are, Big Meanie/Deaths Head, Brunskill Pot, Bumbling Hole, The Cupcake, Dead Dobbin Pot, Eyeholes, Fenwick Pot, Gavel Pot/Short Drop/Coal Hole/Rift Entrance, Humble Pot, Long Drop Cave, Lost Johns/Boxhead Pot, Lost Pot & Lost Pot Sink, Meridian Pot, Notts Pot and Notts Pot 2, Owl Finger Hole, Rough Pot, Rumbling Beck Cave & Rumbling Hole, Shuttleworth Pot, Starting Handle Hole, Pot Black, Toss Pot, Voldemort Pot and Wee Pot. A couple of other small holes listed i.e. Kango Hole and Pirate Pot, appear to have been in the vicinity of the Notts 2 excavation, and it is not certain if they still are open.

For further reference please refer to Northern Caves 3, pages 88 to 117, or its predecessor, Northern Caves Volume 4B – Leck and Casterton Fells, pages 11 to 32. In event that further information is needed please consult the meets secretary.

It is a little known fact that Aygill Caverns is located on land owned by the Leck Estate and that permission to descend should be obtained direct from the estate office. A letter requesting permission, and sae should be forwarded to the Estate Manager, The Estate Office, Cowan Bridge, via Carnforth LA6 2HS.

9. How many permits are issued annually – what are the figures?

The following figures are taken from the Leck Fell Permit Secretaries Report, presented to the CNCC AGM in March of each year:

03/04: 197 permits were issued to 63 clubs/organisations.

04/05: 191 permits were issued to 58 clubs/organisations.

05/06: 181 permits were issued to 48 clubs/organisations.

06/07: 187 permits were issued to 41 clubs/organisations.

07/08: 354 permits were issued to 46 clubs/organisations.

08/09: 367 permits were issued to 51 clubs/organisations.

09/10: 363 permits were issued to 40 clubs/organisations.

10/11: 317 permits were issued to 47 clubs/organisations.

Leck Fell FAQ: This version 26/04/2011